CPC 2013 Rollcall !!!
- Thread starter movingpictures
- Start date
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
The problem with the pinburgh format is the massive amount of games required to support such an event.
PAPA is one of the few places that can do it, which is why it works so well for them.
But as an example lets say we were conservative and said we were only going to take a max of 40 players. We would still need at a bare minimum 20 machines to be able to support that number.
As it stands right now we are having a problem finding enough games for the CPC, I'm providing the lions share bringing 10 of my own machines, but filling the gaps we are missing has been a challenge as most local collectors have not been very quick to step up and the few that have are asking for pickup and delivery.
We will figure it out, but it is a far cry from any US event where you are tripping over people who are happy to lend machines.
PAPA is one of the few places that can do it, which is why it works so well for them.
But as an example lets say we were conservative and said we were only going to take a max of 40 players. We would still need at a bare minimum 20 machines to be able to support that number.
As it stands right now we are having a problem finding enough games for the CPC, I'm providing the lions share bringing 10 of my own machines, but filling the gaps we are missing has been a challenge as most local collectors have not been very quick to step up and the few that have are asking for pickup and delivery.
We will figure it out, but it is a far cry from any US event where you are tripping over people who are happy to lend machines.
Vengeance said:
Why not just use less games?
Have groups of 4 playing 2 game banks, and rotate hourly.
You don't need a minimum of 20 games at all.
Games can also be re-used, why not? They are constantly re-used in the current format anyhow.
Also, can you share which games will be played in the tournament?
Are you competing?
Seems slightly unfair competition wise if only you and organizers who are also competing know the list of games (+ they are yours)
I find match play to be a lot more fun and social way to play.
Adam, are you going to pinmaine-ia?
It's another match play tourney and I am very excited
http://www.nepinball.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
Because in a match play environment, the use of less games doesn't give you as good a sample to determine who the best player is. More games means the better players will rise to the top since the randomness that is inherit in pinball will weed itself out over enough games.
Also only playing 2 games doesn't add much value to the tournament. Most people like pinburgh because they are guaranteed a certain amount of play, cut that in half and I don't think people will enjoy it as much.
Also the reusing of games is fine, to a degree, but it does allow advantage to people who have played the same game before were someone else may not.
The other side of the coin is prize pool. People travel from all over the world for Pinburgh because winning makes it worth their while. Also because of the sheer number of matches you play the price point of $150 is also worthwhile so you get a good prize pool.
Most people will not travel unless they know there is some opportunity to win something. If we cut the match play down to half to accommodate the small number of games we are using, what would be a fair entry? $50?
Then take into account that since the players need to be there all day both days and that we are running the event on a Fri/Saturday and our attendance will be hurt by that fact alone.
Pinburgh is as successful as it is because it has an established client base, and is a spectacle in and of itself.
The format we are using is a standard format used by most other pinball tournaments you attend, and is used to help generate a prize pool, and allow players flexibility so they don't have to be there all day everyday.
It's the same format used at Pinball Expo, NW Show, CAX, MPE, etc, etc.
No, cause we don't know what they are yet.
Yes, and feel free to either:
A) Run your own tournament so I can just be a participant rather then an organizer. or
B) Bring your own games so I don't have to bring as many of mine
So do I and I've tried a pay per play match play format at the Ottawa show the last two years and it hasn't been very successful IMO.
No pinmaineia is a 10 hour trip, much to far for me, if I lived in Montreal I would go.
Also only playing 2 games doesn't add much value to the tournament. Most people like pinburgh because they are guaranteed a certain amount of play, cut that in half and I don't think people will enjoy it as much.
Also the reusing of games is fine, to a degree, but it does allow advantage to people who have played the same game before were someone else may not.
The other side of the coin is prize pool. People travel from all over the world for Pinburgh because winning makes it worth their while. Also because of the sheer number of matches you play the price point of $150 is also worthwhile so you get a good prize pool.
Most people will not travel unless they know there is some opportunity to win something. If we cut the match play down to half to accommodate the small number of games we are using, what would be a fair entry? $50?
Then take into account that since the players need to be there all day both days and that we are running the event on a Fri/Saturday and our attendance will be hurt by that fact alone.
Pinburgh is as successful as it is because it has an established client base, and is a spectacle in and of itself.
The format we are using is a standard format used by most other pinball tournaments you attend, and is used to help generate a prize pool, and allow players flexibility so they don't have to be there all day everyday.
It's the same format used at Pinball Expo, NW Show, CAX, MPE, etc, etc.
No, cause we don't know what they are yet.
Yes, and feel free to either:
A) Run your own tournament so I can just be a participant rather then an organizer. or
B) Bring your own games so I don't have to bring as many of mine
So do I and I've tried a pay per play match play format at the Ottawa show the last two years and it hasn't been very successful IMO.
No pinmaineia is a 10 hour trip, much to far for me, if I lived in Montreal I would go.
Vengeance said:
The same can be said for the current format so I don't see much of a difference.
I think a $50 entry is too low, I would up it to $75 or $100.
I'm sure most competitors will end up spending that much or more in the current format anyhow.
When you know which games will be played, will they be announced?
Vengeance said:
I already run my own monthly cash tournaments
Thanks for the words of wisdom.
Too bad you cant make pinmaine-ia, its gonna be a blast by the sounds of it.
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
movingpictures said:
Not so much since everyone will have the same opportunity to play the games as many times as they need to.
Doubtful, there will be a few people that do, but the vast majority will not and I guarantee that almost no one in the B division will.
We won't know what they are till we load them up in the truck to set them up, it is all going to depend on what we get from who.
I used to think like you, that knowing the games in advance would make some kind of difference, but it doesn't, honestly it's better you don't.
Think of it this way, if you did know the game, best case scenario, you find the same game locally and then practice the hell out of it and learn it backwards and forwards. Then you are going to come to the tournament and get bitch slapped because the game will be setup completely different then the one you played. I sometimes find it worse to have to play on games I own since I have an expectation for what I expect the game to do, the way the ball bounces a certain way, how reliable is the bounce over, etc.
I've always said there is no point in playing any other game in a tournament, then the tournament games because you aren't going to learn what you need to know by playing anything else.
So better to come in fresh.
I already run my own monthly cash tournaments
No WPPR points and too small a prize pool to make a 5 hour trip
Vengeance said:No WPPR points and too small a prize pool to make a 5 hour trip
If you ever have a change of heart let me know, you are welcome to join us.
I don't think we are eligible for WPPR points because the tournaments are not open to the public. :?
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
movingpictures said:
Yep not open, means no WPPR's
Plus since it's a monthly tournament, the 25 points would be split by 12, so they would become worthless anyway.
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
movingpictures said:
No matter how much cash you make, you'll never get to the IFPA World champs without WPPR's :mrgreen:
Hey dudes,
An interesting read for sure.
1st: Thank you for putting this event together Adam B. and company. I had a great time last year. I saw you guys running around like crazy to keep things running smoothly. I also know that the competitive side of you guys must ache when you are holding a clipboard or punching scores into a computer. Without your initiative there would be no CPC.
2nd: I find the match play format a little more fun. But hey, not every tournament can be the same. And it is up to the organizers to choose.
3rd: Despite the fact that I feel bad that the organizers and volunteers can't compete all the time because they are working ... it is a HUGE advantage to play machines that they know and that they have actually played on before (because they own them or are a friend of a guy who owns them.)
HOW CAN WE LEVEL THAT PLAYING FIELD for all of the other participants that are paying their hard earned cash?
Simple ... Commit to picking most of the machines right now. Adam B., you said that you are bringing 10 of the 15-20 machines that will be in the tournament. Well, pick what you want there now. As other machines get offered up ... update a list on your site. We know you are still working out the final machines ... but it is the least you can do to show everyone that this is a fair event. No reason to give the 2012 Pinburgh Champ any more assistance than his awesome skills already offer. Keep in mind that you have friends who have also played your machines more than everyone else in the tournament. At least last year, everyone had equal opportunity (except for us Montrealers) to play the Playdium games the weeks leading up to the tourney.
Is it fair for people to spend a ton of money on qualifying only for someone else (who had been volunteering) ... to step up to his friends machine and post a high score on his 1st qualifying attempt? Example: I pay $100+ dollars to get a good score on a machine I have never played ... meanwhile Bob (who played the machine in your basement a few dozen times) pays $20 to jump ahead of me in the dying hours of qualifying?
I hear your argument about different live versions of the game feeling different. That is not the case for everyone. I for one, know I play better on a machine when I can look up the complicated rules ahead of time. I don't want to spend my time researching machines once I get there. I just want to play them on equal footing with everyone else. And I know the rules to a lot of games already ... so I would probably have advantage over most. Still my vote is for full disclosure.
Adam B., you know it is within your power to make this adjustment. It doesn't involve changing any of the rules of your tournament. It would simply be a Classy move from an already Classy organizer.
It's not about the money. It's about the Honor! (Worf told me to say that!)
BTW ... I am new to Pinball Revolution and I will now try to figure out how to "Thank" you two Adams for this fun banter.
Man we are all NUTS about pinball! Ain't it great?
An interesting read for sure.
1st: Thank you for putting this event together Adam B. and company. I had a great time last year. I saw you guys running around like crazy to keep things running smoothly. I also know that the competitive side of you guys must ache when you are holding a clipboard or punching scores into a computer. Without your initiative there would be no CPC.
2nd: I find the match play format a little more fun. But hey, not every tournament can be the same. And it is up to the organizers to choose.
3rd: Despite the fact that I feel bad that the organizers and volunteers can't compete all the time because they are working ... it is a HUGE advantage to play machines that they know and that they have actually played on before (because they own them or are a friend of a guy who owns them.)
HOW CAN WE LEVEL THAT PLAYING FIELD for all of the other participants that are paying their hard earned cash?
Simple ... Commit to picking most of the machines right now. Adam B., you said that you are bringing 10 of the 15-20 machines that will be in the tournament. Well, pick what you want there now. As other machines get offered up ... update a list on your site. We know you are still working out the final machines ... but it is the least you can do to show everyone that this is a fair event. No reason to give the 2012 Pinburgh Champ any more assistance than his awesome skills already offer. Keep in mind that you have friends who have also played your machines more than everyone else in the tournament. At least last year, everyone had equal opportunity (except for us Montrealers) to play the Playdium games the weeks leading up to the tourney.
Is it fair for people to spend a ton of money on qualifying only for someone else (who had been volunteering) ... to step up to his friends machine and post a high score on his 1st qualifying attempt? Example: I pay $100+ dollars to get a good score on a machine I have never played ... meanwhile Bob (who played the machine in your basement a few dozen times) pays $20 to jump ahead of me in the dying hours of qualifying?
I hear your argument about different live versions of the game feeling different. That is not the case for everyone. I for one, know I play better on a machine when I can look up the complicated rules ahead of time. I don't want to spend my time researching machines once I get there. I just want to play them on equal footing with everyone else. And I know the rules to a lot of games already ... so I would probably have advantage over most. Still my vote is for full disclosure.
Adam B., you know it is within your power to make this adjustment. It doesn't involve changing any of the rules of your tournament. It would simply be a Classy move from an already Classy organizer.
It's not about the money. It's about the Honor! (Worf told me to say that!)
BTW ... I am new to Pinball Revolution and I will now try to figure out how to "Thank" you two Adams for this fun banter.
Man we are all NUTS about pinball! Ain't it great?
bstock
Active Member
I'm super new to the hobby, and haven't played many pinball machines at all. I'm looking forward to competing in my first competition. Trying to decide whether or not to pre-register because I won't have my work schedule until the 24th. I'm hoping at the very least I should be able to make it to the saturday.
I'm really hoping to put some faces to names around here, so I'm hoping that I might get to meet quite a few of you guys if I can make it out there!
I'm really hoping to put some faces to names around here, so I'm hoping that I might get to meet quite a few of you guys if I can make it out there!
Hoser said:
This seems like a good idea.
I personally don't really care either way, but Hoser does have a valid point...
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
The playing field is level.
Nobody but the organizers knows the potential list of games, so everyone is on the same playing field.
Also this isn't new, In my past 9 years of competitive play, no one releases game lists prior to the event, not PAPA, not MPE, not CAX, not NW Show, not anyone. Even Pinmania isn't listing their machines. Pinburgh is one of the few exceptions but listing out 400 machines doesn't really tell you anything.
Our reasoning behind it as I mentioned before is we don't really know what machines will be used, also we don't want to deal with the hassle of people expecting one thing and not getting it. I could put up a list of games, then day of setup, something might change, maybe something breaks, or I don't have enough room in the trailer, and then we have to deal with people asking us why isn't the game they were expecting there.
There are more potential problems from creating a list of machines that will be used then there are for not. No list means no expectations.
As for the perceived advantage from local players, that's just the way it is. I'm heading to Michigan this weekend playing in Pinbowl, which is run by Andy Rosa, playing on Andy's games:
http://bowlflint.com/pinball/
http://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?p=20
I don't know the list of games, but I know the local players have been playing them and Andy as well since they are his, it is what it is.
I used to think the same way early into my competitive career, I used to try and analyze previous PAPA's so I could try and predict which machines would end up in my division. Now I just show up and play, as it doesn't matter what machine it is, I know I can win.
But feel free to use the internet and try and deduce which machines will end up in the tournament from my collection:
http://www.pinballowners.com/vengeance
Thanks for taking the time to hear other competitors out.
It is your event ... and you are entitled to host it any way you want. Just as we are entitled to decide if we come or not. And I can't speak for others ... but I will be there regardless.
I still feel the fair thing would be to let everyone know what machines are intended to be there ... and include a clause that you have the right to switch a machine or two for ANY reason. This would give you the flexibility to deal with finicky machines.
In a larger tournament of 50+ machines ... it makes less of a difference. But when you only have to put up awesome scores on 6 machines out of 10 and you know them like the back of your hand (or the back of your friends hand) ... let's just say qualifying is a gimme.
No worries Adam B. You are a cool dude. I guess I was just reaching out on behalf of all of the participants who don't have access to your wonderful collection.
If ever you change your mind and decide to post a line-up ... a big Thank You!
Cheers ... oh ... and I equally look forward to talking pinball, sharing cool experiences, and getting to know more great pinheads!
It is your event ... and you are entitled to host it any way you want. Just as we are entitled to decide if we come or not. And I can't speak for others ... but I will be there regardless.
I still feel the fair thing would be to let everyone know what machines are intended to be there ... and include a clause that you have the right to switch a machine or two for ANY reason. This would give you the flexibility to deal with finicky machines.
In a larger tournament of 50+ machines ... it makes less of a difference. But when you only have to put up awesome scores on 6 machines out of 10 and you know them like the back of your hand (or the back of your friends hand) ... let's just say qualifying is a gimme.
No worries Adam B. You are a cool dude. I guess I was just reaching out on behalf of all of the participants who don't have access to your wonderful collection.
If ever you change your mind and decide to post a line-up ... a big Thank You!
Cheers ... oh ... and I equally look forward to talking pinball, sharing cool experiences, and getting to know more great pinheads!
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
Just for my friends here at PBRev:
Kids
Avengers
NBA
Charity
WCS
Classics
Joker Poker
Volley
FG
Frontier
Open
Pinbot
Shadow
Godzilla
Congo
BSD
Getaway
Jackbot
Radical
TX Sector
Wh20
Kids
Avengers
NBA
Charity
WCS
Classics
Joker Poker
Volley
FG
Frontier
Open
Pinbot
Shadow
Godzilla
Congo
BSD
Getaway
Jackbot
Radical
TX Sector
Wh20
The main thing I got from the list was:
'YES I'll get to play radical again!!!'
Then I realized I've played it once so probably not my best gameplan ....
WIll there be a chance to play radical outside of the tourney or before / after ?
Better yet, sell me it! :lol:
'YES I'll get to play radical again!!!'
Then I realized I've played it once so probably not my best gameplan ....
WIll there be a chance to play radical outside of the tourney or before / after ?
Better yet, sell me it! :lol: