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LED OCD!

Vengeance

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2012
1,990
139
63
Keswick, ON
You know what else transitions like incandescent bulbs?

INCANDESCENT BULBS

facepalm.gif
 

Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Nov 14, 2012
2,440
255
83
Santiago de Aurora
Vengeance said:
You know what else transitions like incandescent bulbs?

INCANDESCENT BULBS

facepalm.gif

You would be absolutely correct Adam, but...

What about some of Stern's latest releases that are LED only yet still use the SAM 1.0 boards system? Currently the only way to remedy this issue is to remove all of the LED PCB's and install discrete sockets with diodes and bulbs. You add all that up, not to mention the amount of time it would take, and you're WAAAAY over the cost of buying an LED OCD setup. I actually thought about designing something similar a few years ago, but we all know I had bigger issues to deal with then and a lot of the things I wanted to do fell by the way side.

We all know that incandescent bulbs at some point in time will become NLA, and this is a fantastic little product to solve the problems that plague using LED's in a PWM type supply.

D
 

Vengeance

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2012
1,990
139
63
Keswick, ON
I don't know what the difference is but I don't find the inclusion of LED's as seizure inducing in Sterns as I do your Standard WMS/Bally and actually really like the LEDS in the newer Sterns, could just be that since the game was built around them they are used in an effective manner that takes advantage of what the LEDS has to offer.

So given that, I don't really care if they dim properly or not as they work well with their current integration into the machine.

But I'll never understand why someone would actually spend the money to put in LED's to a machine (considering depending on how many you buy they could cost as much or more then buying a new EM machine) and then want them to work like Incandescent bulbs.

It's like someone who buys a MAC to only say, well I need it to run PC Software. all I can think is "Hey moron, you know you could have cut out the middle man in this situation and saved yourself a TON of money?"

That's kinda my same thought process with this product.

If I want my machine to look like it has Incandescent Bulbs in it, I'll use incandescent bulbs :eek:

Menace said:
You would be absolutely correct Adam, but...

What about some of Stern's latest releases that are LED only yet still use the SAM 1.0 boards system? Currently the only way to remedy this issue is to remove all of the LED PCB's and install discrete sockets with diodes and bulbs. You add all that up, not to mention the amount of time it would take, and you're WAAAAY over the cost of buying an LED OCD setup. I actually thought about designing something similar a few years ago, but we all know I had bigger issues to deal with then and a lot of the things I wanted to do fell by the way side.

We all know that incandescent bulbs at some point in time will become NLA, and this is a fantastic little product to solve the problems that plague using LED's in a PWM type supply.

D
 

Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Nov 14, 2012
2,440
255
83
Santiago de Aurora
I get what you're saying about using LED's in place of bulbs at this point in time. If you want the look of bulbs use bulbs.

The point I was trying to make is eventually the bulbs supply will end (and I don't think it's as far off as some may think), and then what will you do for your games that were not intended to use LED's? The issue is LED's are not meant to be driven the same way a bulb is, so when you have no other option this product will be essential. There are also instances where some games benefit from having the colour and brightness options of LED's for their inserts that bulbs just cannot meet, and again this product would give you the benefit of both worlds. But I'm preaching to the choir here, I know you care more about the games just working over how they look. :)

D
 

REVOLUTION

Administrator
Staff member
Nov 13, 2012
2,314
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GTA
www.pinballrevolution.com
It's not the "look" of bulbs per se, but the transition from "on" to "off" that bugs me with LED's. I love the "punch" of colour they can add to a game. I'm not saying they look great in ALL games, but they do work for some (especially games with dark playfields). There's also the fact that you'll likely never have to change a bulb again.. that alone is a good reason to switch to LED.

Regardless, this technology is something that should've been implemented in newer Sterns in the first place! Hell, even my Xmen and Avengers pins flicker like crazy.. it drives me MAD! And as J. Santiago said, there was nothing I could do about it it.. 'till now. ;)
 

Slam_Tilt

Member
Nov 20, 2012
203
19
18
54
Brampton
I will be getting a pin that has LED's through out. I am not a fan of LED's. But this product may be worth it for me. Instead of replacing all the LED's with incandescent's which can be very time consuming I can just plug one of these boards in. It is expensive though at $150 +shipping. I'll just have to see how lazy I am. :)
 

Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Nov 14, 2012
2,440
255
83
Santiago de Aurora
Brent,

Completely valid argument, swapping out LED's can be a royal pain depending on the game.

After looking at the design and what's included I don't think the price is that far out of line. Coming from an electronics mfg background, I'm guessing on a small scale build the parts and labor costs would easily be half the asking price. (the cable assemblies are BRUTAL to make) That still leaves all the time it took the guy to develop the software side of the product... All in all it may seem like a lot of $$ for what it does, but knowing what it takes to pull something like this off on a small scale I don't have a problem with the price point at all.

I'm almost on the fence of ordering one myself to mess around with. :)

D
 

herg

New Member
Mar 28, 2013
3
1
1
Virginia
Hello,

I am the guy who designed LED OCD. I just ran across this thread, and despite my first post to the forum bumping an old topic, I just wanted to make a few comments. Sorry if it's considered bad form.

I agree if you want the look of incandescents, you should use incandescents. I have incandescents in both my LOTR and TZ for that very reason.

I designed and use LED OCD for games where I wanted better color (blue that isn't green, etc) or whiter whites. When I put LEDs in a couple of my games, I hated them, and ended up pulling them all back out. Eventually, I decided to do something about it.

The reason B/W games are more "seizure inducing" than Stern games is that the B/W games scan the lamp matrix at 62.5 Hz, while the Stern games do so at 125 Hz. The frequency at which the human eye starts to see the flicker varies from person to person, but 60 Hz is right on the edge. Stern didn't do everything right, though, as their dimming effects work by alternating the lamps during their timeslots, effectively reducing their refresh rate. That's why most of Stern's attract modes with dimming effects look like garbage with LEDs.

With regards to the price of LED OCD. I'd love to be able to make them available for less, but what Menace said is dead on. The cost of the parts, PCB assembly, etc. is well more than half of the $150 USD, and I'm still assembling the cables by hand. Yes, I'm making some money on them, but when I figure in the amount of time I've put into it, I'm making far less than minimum wage.

To the guys who I recognize that have purchased, thank you.
 

superjackpot

Active Member
Nov 19, 2012
342
45
28
Mississauga, ON
herg said:
...B/W games scan the lamp matrix at 62.5 Hz, while the Stern games do so at 125 Hz. The frequency at which the human eye starts to see the flicker varies from person to person, but 60 Hz is right on the edge...

Now I understand... thank you. I cannot stand leds in my older Williams games (certain GIs and distant corners excluded). The symptoms were always plainly obvious to me while a certain few would say 'well, doesn't bother me', almost with a flippant attitude. When multiple LEDed inserts would flash just right the ball would disappear for brief moments at a time (stroboscopic effect). It would be here one moment and suddenly somewhere else even though I was looking directly at it. Drove me insane. I've walked away mid game from setups like this.

BITD when CRT computer monitors were the only game in town and I could always pick out a CRT running at a 60 Hz refresh rate. I could see horizontal bands with my peripheral vision.

While the newer Sterns are better, I tell you with certainly there still are remnants of this effect. It was one of the reasons I chose the ACDC Pro over the ACDC LE - incandescents. What will I do when they are no bulbs left? Stockpile beforehand. Like I already do with 60W incandescent household lightbulbs.

Not without a bottom up redesign or a proven retrofit product would I ever, ever consider LEDing my games.
 

frolic

Member
Nov 19, 2012
686
0
16
50
Tdot
I have a Williams version as well as a Stern. I have not installed them yet.

I was going to install it in my TOM but no longer have it, so I have a spare williams one if someone wants it.