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DRANO

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Nov 15, 2012
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Also you once again mention that I don't seem to give back to the community enough. I'd agree with that in regards to this PBR but you don't really know what I did, do, or will do for pinball. If I really didn't care about any of this I wouldn't bother posting at all.


Quite the contrary Dan.
I've heard you are very active in the community and I've only heard good things about you and your games... with the exception that you sell high and like to stir the pot ;) But, even then, people are generally happy to pay your price because they know you and what you have put into your games. Your reputation precedes you.

Is there a "circle" here? Sure there is. I see and/or speak with a lot of these guys on a regular basis. Are we all bum-huggers [corrected ;) ]? Not at all. Some people I am closer to and others I mostly know online. The point is that we all interact and somewhat know each other. And yes, if you posted more on this forum I'm sure you would be considered part of that circle... but that in no way diminishes your reputation and contributions elsewhere in the hobby. If any of these guys were to post games that seem unreasonable I am much more inclined to give them a pass or at least not get involved.

I am not excusing it, but I think I have done a pretty fair job of explaining where the animosity towards rsss comes from... and it is most likely due to unfamiliarity or even ignorance; in the truest sense of the word. People don't know him and only see someone who comes here to ask for big money. I don't want to embarrass anyone here... but it's very easy to go to a member's profile page and see all of the posts they have made or threads they have started. When nearly 100% of those threads are FS posts at the higher end of the market, that says a lot to me.

As for the comments I made about your collection. I think it's quite obvious how you would benefit from rsss selling his games at higher than normal prices. Because it would add justification for you to sell your games high. Pretty basic concept. Guys like myself, Adam and Tkaye also have nice collections of games and we might also benefit from an inflated market... so ask yourself why do we get so worked up? Maybe because we're not in this just for our own gains.

I actually like most of the people here.... including you Dan. I enjoy a good debate. I wish there were more active voices and fewer FS and WTB posts. I wish rsss and others would take the time to get to know the members here and to participate and contribute in whatever way they felt comfortable. Then maybe we wouldn't have to have these discussions.
 
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Bally Boy

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Dec 14, 2012
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Quite the contrary Dan.
I've only heard good things about you and your games... with the exception that you sell high and like to stir the pot ;) But, even then, people are generally happy to pay your price because they know you and what you have put into your games. Your reputation precedes you.

Is there a "circle" here? Sure there is.

Maybe because we're not in this just for our own gains.

OK - first off, sell high.... really? Yeah my Baywatch, GoldenEye, LAH and recently Flash Gordon were really off the charts. That's a broad uniformed statement you made. Other WPC games I've sold in the past, which may have been on the high end at the time of sale, market prices have caught up and surpassed in most cases. They were pretty fucking nice games too... no problems and people got what they paid for. WPC are the most sought after games by most anyway. Tells me I priced them right as they sold, and to my knowledge, nobody has resold them at a crazy profit. Good for me nobody else cashed in on my hard work. What about your reputation? You just told me on PBR that EK is $1300 and gladly go on to buy a nicer example at $2200. Then yesterday I see this.... how come you didn't post it up here. Maybe Adam and Todd aren't in it for the gains but you sure seem to be... busted! I'm %100 positive you're not taking $1300 for this unless it's USD and I'd still doubt that.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-allentown-pinfest-2016-thread/page/11#post-3046610

I don't care that you do it, heck I did it myself last year too, but I don't show boat in front of the PBR forum and tell them the ethics of selling. At least I own up to my prices and stand up behind them. I've come to the reality that nobody is giving anything away anymore.. I always posted my games on forums in Canada first, threads that were walked on just like this one, mostly over on MAACA but the buzz was behind the scenes here too. I sold that HUO NGG last year at Allentown and it sold in less than 45 minutes over on Pinside which tells me it was priced right. The guy even contacted me this year and asked me if I had anymore to sell. Geeze, I must have really put the screws to him.....;)

Secondly - you told me on another thread that there was no circle, it's obvious to most who wanna see it that there is, and you finally said it. Don't be confused I said bum-hugging, not bum buddies, not the same thing at all. I've made pretty sure everybody knows what this means by now.

The hypocrisy. The 'circle' you mentioned, who keep patting each other on the back, saying how they are always doing great things for the pinball community. The funny thing is that you only hear their thanks for each other on this forum. All the deals, helping and talking are behind the scenes among the 'circle'. THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T BENEFIT - ONLY THE CIRCLE DOES, and while the community reads all the thanks threads and wishes they were in the 'circle', the circle will never speak out against each other. This is not to say they never help anyone else out and there are not good people in that group but they do tend to constrain all their business within it. They very rarely ever sell on PBR, and I have great dealings and help from a lot of them, I've also offered help to them at times as well. This gushing does get on my nerves sometimes and I personally don't have a problem with some shit disturbing cause it gets a discussion going.
 
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DRANO

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I just sold that EK to a local friend that wanted it for what I have into it... and have told the interested parties that PMd me on Pinside that it's gone. Maybe I should update that. I do like to bring a game to the show as it gets me in early and for free. And of course I have sold in USD for normal USD going rates in the past. Helps to pay for my trip. I've never made any bones about that or misled anyone.

I also never said you sell high; only that some people have said that about you... but also that most of them think your games were worth the asking price. I've always sold high too... or for at least what I think a game is worth. I don't have any issue with that at all. If you want to continue to weave that into whatever drama you wish to create here, please continue.

I know you have an issue with some of the "regulars" here and there seems to be an agenda with your posts. Maybe some of them have tried to call you out before. That's not me and it's not the vast majority of people here so I'm not sure why you want to put a black eye on this forum or expose some great secret injustice? It sounded a while back like you had an issue with one of our mods because he likes to keep track of current values and sales in order to keep people informed. Is that a bad thing? Sounds to me like there is a personal bone to pick. Maybe deal with that in private?

And yes, there is a circle Dan. It's a circle of people who are here to contribute and participate... not just to take.
I have a handful of people here that I call friends... but I have also quietly and behind the scenes, spoken to and tried to help a lot of other people here that I have never even met... whether it be with repairs, finding games or pointing them in the right direction and making an introduction. You get what you give and I can certainly sleep well at night. Also, if doing deals in private with people you know and not posting it here is a crime... you'd better lock us all up... but I also know how to pay it forward. I had a gentleman that assisted me a couple of years ago in collecting a machine. I rarely see or speak to him, but he asked me to keep a watch out for an Eight Ball. Yesterday I heard of one that might be available and I contacted him right away. And why did I do that? It didn't profit me at all.

When I sell a machine I set my price, I take offers and the deal is either done or not done. I don't string them along, I don't feign seller's remorse and then kill the deal only to come back to them weeks later with a higher price, I don't put strange conditions on the sale and make them beg... that's not my style. If you have issues with people here or how they may paint you, maybe some introspection is warranted... or at least a private conversation with them. Again, that is not me and it is not the rest of this forum... but please continue to try and make us all look bad. I know it's just a deflection tactic to hide how you really see this hobby and it's participants and also to paint Brock, Mike and others in a negative light. Not sure where that chip on your shoulder came from, but maybe it's time to let it go and jump in the pool ;)

So, I will re-iterate that I like you Dan. I think you enjoy pinball and that you do nice work. You are a gracious host by all accounts and have sold people some very nice games. I have no issue with you or rsss selling whatever you want for as much as you want as long as it is done in a fair and open fashion. I will do the same. I feel bad for suggesting that rsss was only trying to sell to fat rich Ontarians. That was obviously my mistake and I corrected it. I also feel bad if you feel somehow excluded or hard done by and I hope you will be a more active participant in more threads... hopefully not just to fan the flames in the threads like this one. I enjoy a good and healthy debate and I certainly try to never take anything here too personally. I don't always agree with many people here, but I'm okay with that. If I have ever wronged anyone, I invite them to post openly and call me out... or at least PM me directly and I will try to make it right. That is how I roll. Everything is in the open Dan (well, except for private pin deals of course ;) ). There is no hidden agenda and we all have to own the reputation we have crafted for ourselves so, can we please just let it go?
 
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Chambahz

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How about we keep things simple:

Don't comment in a for sale thread, unless you're interested in the pin!

There aren't any rules on PBRev about setting prices. As we know, the market will determine if the price is right. If it's too high, then game will sit.
No need for all you price police to beat down a potential seller.

Those who disagree can eat a...

: )
 

Bally Boy

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Dec 14, 2012
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When I sell a machine I set my price, I take offers and the deal is either done or not done. I don't string them along, I don't feign seller's remorse and then kill the deal only to come back to them weeks later with a higher price, I don't put strange conditions on the sale and make them beg... that's not my style. If you have issues with people here or how they may paint you, maybe some introspection is warranted... or at least a private conversation with them. Again, that is not me and it is not the rest of this forum... but please continue to try and make us all look bad. I know it's just a deflection tactic to hide how you really see this hobby and it's participants and also to paint Brock, Mike and others in a negative light. Not sure where that chip on your shoulder came from, but maybe it's time to let it go and jump in the pool ;)

Sure Ok, I'll jump into the pool based on your "mostly accurate" description of my selling history. I don't owe it to you but here's some brutal introspection for you.

A lot of new people came into this hobby a few years back, obviously with a ton of money, throwing "polarizing money deals" at games I owned for some time to build their relatively new collections. I gotta say I was pretty floored by a few of the offers at the time and sometimes reluctantly I made a couple bad calls/deals after long and often circular conversations that went on and on, then thought the better of it sooner rather than later, so I called it off promptly with no money was exchanged or games never changed hands. Yeah, sure call it sellers remorse between "friends", wishy washy, hammered drunk, straight up backed out or whatever you wanna call it. It's my right to do that. These people were apologized to at length sometimes for years, apologies supposedly accepted and things were back to square so I thought. Especially after the conversations ( mostly on the phone, sometimes in person, text or online pm's ), I was reassured every things cool don't worry about it, but what I didn't realize they would then mention it to everyone in the community behind the scenes that would listen and therefore helping solidify my infamous reputation. Keep in mind I never really wanted to sell the games every time in the first place... it was just talk most of the time. I tried to be a nice guy to everybody and got hammered into commitment at times when I don't think I wanted to... but the money thrown out there was too difficult for me to ignore at the time. It made these situations so much more difficult. These probably account for less than 4% of my total dealings in pinball game sales up to this point. I've definately learned something here over the years - I can't be a great guy all the time to everybody, sorry. I'm sure this has happened to others too.

Offering a game and jacking the price? Yeah, I was talking to Jason about a game few years ago and offered him a game/price basically cause I though Dwayne would do me a kindness on another title in the same trip/dealing. Not to be, so I mentioned to Jason promptly that I had issue and had seriously underpriced my game, which in hindsight I really had. Jason seemed ok with it at the time and later Dwayne and I talked it out - I think we're all good again but maybe I'm wrong. Jason has never really said much so I assume he wasn't impressed with me. Sorry again Jason - I still think your a heck of a nice guy regardless what you think of me or that shitty deal gone bad.

Strange conditions? I mention to anybody I sell a game to - "if you sell this game later, let me have first crack at it to buy it back" and at times have bought games back at considerably more than I sold them for, What's so strange about that? I really don't expect to get every game I sell back either. The buyer can just say no this too, geez, what am I going to say?

Also, begging? Please, if people are going to beg me to sell them a game I've "considered" selling in the past and maybe mentioned at one point to them or somebody they know along the way, how is that my control? I don't make people jump through hoops at all - it's just not true. When I didn't want to sell I didn't - it's my right. I assume that this is a direct poke at TAF I eventually sold Todd. He misunderstood a text message which he actually acknowledged it as his fault, I thought we were good on that, obviously he has shared the info with you and god knows who else. I guess it wasn't a good thing that I considered him a local buddy and therefore proceeded to bust his balls a few days later on the price... which I was totally joking about and would've never accepted. Not in good taste from my end at all in hindsight.... as I had already disregarded his misunderstanding from days earlier... but ultimately I'm at fault there with a bad joke in the end. Actually Mike Wong and I talked about this and I explained this situation further at the KISS premiere party at Wild Wings - I really didn't have too. Thought it was all water under the bridge but obviously you and some others are still keeping score out there.

So let's do the high-lite reel; 3 guys 4 deals gone wrong out of probably well over 100 deals... actual game sales.....not to mention all the pinball extra stuff I've sold over the years...........whoop whoop!!! Yeah, I'll agree I am the worse seller in the world and thanks for the low blow.
Yet once again, Shaun, Jason and Todd- I'm sorry those things ever happened and I hoped we'd gone way past it. If you never let it go I totally understand.
 

DRANO

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Nov 15, 2012
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For the record Dan... when these stories have surfaced in my presence (in private), my first reaction was to ask "Did he offer you the game or did you try and pry it from him". I know this is a very important distinction because, if you are approached to sell a game that you hadn't really thought about selling, then I will agree that you have every right to hum and hah and be wishy washy until your mind is made up. But if it becomes a pattern, people will unfortunately talk. I've heard about people who complained about me to others in the hobby. Stating that the game I sold them was nowhere near to restored (which I never claimed). it doens't feel nice and I wish that they had come to me first, but I can't control that... I can only learn from it.

We can easily make assumptions and conclusions about each other as proven in the last few posts but it means nothing and serves no purpose. I obviously didn't cash out on my EK and you can't be judged solely on the 3-4 bad deals you mentioned.

I simply suggest that, if you have problems with certain people here or with this perceived 'circle', just get it all out in the open instead of using this FS post as your soapbox. This stopped being about rsss and his games a long time ago... if it ever was that to begin with.

I try to be a "glass half full" type of person, but it's not always easy. I can only 'try' to conduct myself in the best way possible and hope that people will respect and judge me accordingly. I think we are both better off leaving it alone and I am happy to discuss any issue you may have in private or in another thread without malice or judgement.
 

Bally Boy

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I simply suggest that, if you have problems with certain people here or with this perceived 'circle', just get it all out in the open instead of using this FS post as your soapbox. This stopped being about rsss and his games a long time ago... if it ever was that to begin with..

These are two in the same. RSSS should be shown the same courtesy as anybody from the circle, this thread went places where I couldn't even predict.

Obviously this is not a soap box - if it was it'd be yours as I don't belong here.
 

DRANO

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Fine Dan,

I agree and have already apologized for my part in the rsss comments. Others can speak for themselves.
I personally think it has always been more a question of manners and etiquette rather than price policing, but maybe I am wrong and we are all a bunch of bullies.

I don't believe there is a hidden agenda or separate set of rules on this site... and nobody has it out for you or rsss AFAIK. I could be naive.
Maybe we can all benefit from placing ourselves in the other guy's shoes.

Thank you for your replies
 

Rascal

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Pre-sorry if I offend anyone, since this is all very serious.

The sad part of this unfortunate misunderstanding, is the poor sense of haha that some people have. If anyone digs through the drama at the start of the thread they will find a few quite innocent pokes and jokes. The hyper-sensitivity then kicks into overdrive.
I was under the understanding that joking around was acceptable to a playful degree, and these first few comments certainly fell well within that range.
I am new here and trying to interact, and may have done the same thing, that is the fun part, right? I am not so sure now? Did i miss the funeral party sign at the door? Community, anyone?
Lighten up guys. You can be professional and still have a little fun. Or maybe I am missing a bigger issue here?
You might want to move or close this thread, but it is good for traffic and entertaining reading.
 

Bally Boy

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Pre-sorry if I offend anyone, since this is all very serious.

You can be professional and still have a little fun. Or maybe I am missing a bigger issue here?
No offense taken on my part at all Rascal, welcome to the site, and regardless of what you are reading I have a really good sense of humour ( sarcastic ) but good non the less when something is funny. Some of this wasn't really.

I feel you are missing a bigger issue here, I thought I explained it pretty well in bold font ( scroll up and read it again - it's buried in all the BS ), and unfortunately I don't have a solution either. I'll just go away again for awhile so everybody can breath easy and go back about the positive drama free pinball business here on PBR:) Especially in the F/S forum. By the way I did start another thread about this but it never caught on and people kept on posting on this thread so I was brought back into it. RSSS is no longer here but I am sorry for posting more on his F/S thread as well. In my opinion mods should have locked this thread long ago as RSSS withdrew his post. Here's some of the discussion on the other thread:

http://www.pinballrevolution.com/threads/lets-keep-the-topic-rolling.4530/
 
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DRANO

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Nov 15, 2012
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Pre-sorry if I offend anyone, since this is all very serious.

The sad part of this unfortunate misunderstanding, is the poor sense of haha that some people have. If anyone digs through the drama at the start of the thread they will find a few quite innocent pokes and jokes. The hyper-sensitivity then kicks into overdrive.
I was under the understanding that joking around was acceptable to a playful degree, and these first few comments certainly fell well within that range.
I am new here and trying to interact, and may have done the same thing, that is the fun part, right? I am not so sure now? Did i miss the funeral party sign at the door? Community, anyone?
Lighten up guys. You can be professional and still have a little fun. Or maybe I am missing a bigger issue here?
You might want to move or close this thread, but it is good for traffic and entertaining reading.


Don't worry Rascal.
Although it may not seem that way, I suspect both Dan and I are having more fun here than most people would assume from the written word. I can't speak for him of course.

RSSS did get sort of caught in the middle here so that's not cool and I guess that could've been handled better.

I was sincere in trying to convince Dan that there isn't any conspiracy (most people on this forum have a pretty good opinion of him from what I can gather). Dan I hope you can get past the poor feelings you've got for this forum and/or some of its members and I hope you stick around and post more often... even if it is to keep everyone honest and ward off bum huggers.

Signing off from this thread.
 
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eh97ac

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